Our dear Nechama left a comment to yesterday's blog post which was too important to leave buried in the comment section so I am reproducing it here along with my response.
Nechama has left a new comment on your post "A Personal Message":Thank you for your honest and heartfelt questions, Nechama, but for answers all I can give you are my own thoughts and opinions based on my learning.
Everything is the will of Hashem, but doesn't Hashem work through people and nature? I don't have an opinion about army or Torah learning...I think everyone has to do what he feels is right for his soul. As a baal teshuvah, what's confusing to me is what exactly are the differences between the religious-zionists and the chareidi? Obviously their dress, degree of integration into secular society, and army service vs.Torah learning. But isn't that due to people choosing what they need to satisfy their Jewish souls in fulfilling their tasks in life? Both groups are still Torah Jews..I see more articles available in English explaining the religious-zionist views. Would you be willing to explain the chareidi view? I understand living apart, dressing more modestly, and from your comment, it seems that everything is betachon in Hashem...so does Israel need an army at all? I lock my door at night, but then I say shema to keep me safe?? Can you just offer insight into the approach of the chareidi world. I feel better knowing that there are yeshivas filled with learners of Torah. I have 2 nephews who are learners. I am very proud of them. I also have 2 nephews who are religious/yeshivish in the army. and I am proud of them also. Does Israel need an army? Does Hashem want us to have one? what are the chareidi views. I'm being sincere in my questions because I do hear chareidi bashing over the protests and I think it's terrible. If someone wants to learn, he should be able to and if someone wants to serve in the army, in a religious unit, he should be respected as well. So what's going on? You're a wonderful blogger, please help with information so people can respond to the negative criticism going on back and forth...even within families.
First, I am not Chareidi in the sense that most people use the term. In fact, I live in a mixed secular-religious yishuv, but I consider myself chardal (chareidi-dati leumi). I have taken what I believe to be the best (most true to Torah) from both worlds.
I can't agree with those who say Judaism is simply a religion and land is totally unimportant anymore than I can agree with those who want to throw religion out altogether. And I might agree with the current demonstrators if I knew what they really wanted, but I don't agree with their methods. In any case, I choose not to express an opinion on that particular subject because I don't have enough information to make an informed opinion.
Yes, we need an army. We must provide the kli through which Hashem does His miracles, but if, God forbid, the kli were missing, Hashem would act openly and on His own to save us. We are an eternal people and that does not depend on anything that we do. Knowing that, we are forbidden to depend on miracles, yes? It's a balancing act and we have to be so careful not to veer too far to either side. We have to be careful not to put all our faith in a human institution on the one hand or depend too much on miracles on the other.
It is worth recalling, however, that every Jew in our history was either a warrior or prepared to be one as the need required, and without the benefit of an organized institution such as the IDF is today, which concerns itself not only with the defense of the nation, but with exerting cultural and societal influence as well.
When the institution itself becomes an existential threat and the danger it presents begins to outweigh it's usefulness, it's time to think about either a replacement or a complete overhaul. But, if it is viewed as something sacrosanct - beyond question or criticism - or when people lack the vision to imagine that it can be better, and not just when Mashiach comes, then there is no hope to improve the situation.
Some people say: "It's not perfect, but it's all we have." This is the worst possible attitude to take. It CAN be better, MUCH better, and it is in our hands to make it so. It is our responsibility and our obligation to remove the threat it has come to represent to us rather then to our enemies! For the sake of our children and our future, we have to wake up from this delusion that nothing can change until Mashiach comes or worse, that nothing NEEDS to change.
In my view, the first step to change is recognition that this is NOT a Jewish state and we do NOT have a Jewish army. It is foreign in concept and foreign in "values." Once good Jews can accept that, we can talk about how to make it better - not perfect - but much improved, JEWISH for a start!
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I found the following video after I had written the above. But, Rabbi Bar-Hayim was one of my first teachers. I guess maybe the learning stuck.
It's too bad the charedi protesters and the leadership behind them are infected by inflated egos.
ReplyDeleteWhy are there protests?
If those who are against serving were truly acting l'shaim shamayim and solely interested in learning, they would simply refuse to participate in what they perceive as a charade (registering for deferments or exemptions). If or when the Military Police show up, they would just go to military prison...and learn there.
Military prison is not civilian prison (my son spent five days there, I know this well). If all these people want to do is sit and learn, they can, and should, set up a beis midrash in the prison and actually do it there. Even better, the affect it would have on the other inmates (at any one time, there are THOUSANDS of soldiers incarcerated, most for being AWOL like them) would likely be impressive. This kind of non-violent response to the government would prove that the conflict is entirely made up by those in power, as they have no intention of arresting thousands of charedim in pursuit of their agenda.
Instead, it's one Chilul Hashem after another. Sickening.
Thank you Devorah and Shimshon.
ReplyDeleteThis is my answer to Nechama’s question (in several parts)
ReplyDeleteFirst part
Just to give you some background: we are a couple of haredim, baal teshuva, scientists, who were first members of a modern orthodox community and then moved to the Haredi world. I used to live in Belgium (but not in Antwerp) until 4.5 years ago.
There are several differences of Haskafa between the Religious-Zionists and Haredim. Also, there a lot of people who are perceived as Religious-Zionists because they dress like them and might not be as strict as the Haredim in their practice of the mitsvot but their rabbis are actually Haredim. For French olim, for example, it’s overwhelmingly the case. So you could say that there are Religious-Zionists (who follow their Religious-Zionists rabbis), there are Haredim (who also follow their rabbis) and there is a religious(/traditional-religious) public who lives like religious-Zionists but their rabbis are Haredim.
Also important to know is the fact that Haredim (and Religious-Zioninsts) are not a monolithic bloc. There are several factions among the Haredim that range from viscerally anti-zionist to pro-zionist. It’s almost impossible to generalize.
To get back to your question, The main objections of the Haredim regarding IDF service are, in my opinion, by order of importance:
• The supreme occupational/vocational value among all streams of haredim is Torah learning. As such, all streams agree that those who wish to learn Torah should be allowed to do so, without being coerced to do something else against their will, including being drafted in the army. I think it’s a general position of haredim, even the streams that allow their brethren to draft in the army. Of course the state of Israel needs an army to do some histadlut in defending the country but until recently, haredim were not in the army and there was no manpower shortage so, the problem is not a lack of manpower.
• The problem is mainly ideological. (If it was a problem of equality, Yesh Atid would be trying to forcefully draft the Arabs but most understand that it is neither wise nor likely. I know that Yisrael Beitenu has this talk but I am not convinced it is meant to be more than talk…) The Israeli army’s first function, at least during the first decades of the state, is/was to defend the state against the enemy. The second function, which seems to have become the first one, is social engineering. It’s not a secret. From the start, the IDF has served as mechina of the Israeli-Secular-Zionist ethos and a factory of the “proud new Israeli” by opposition to the old-fashioned humbled diaspora jew. Now the secular aspect is more highlighted than the Zionist one but the way it works is the same. Why do I say that it is becoming the first objective? Because of the recent trend of the army to include women in an increasing number of combatant units, despite alarming internal statistics that show higher proportion of severe wounds, lower physical requirements, the high consumption of condoms and practice of abortions, and most worrying, the awkward position in which the backbone of the army, the religious-zionists, are left today in the IDF. The difficult position is such that several rabbis of the Chardal camp are saying that if this trend continues, they will have no other choice than recommending their talmidim to avoid being drafted in the IDF. How can we reconcile the fact that there is two conflicting wills in the secular world (draft haredim and making more and more army units female friendly)? I don’t know. It does not add up. They certainly don’t mean to transform the army in the biggest kiruv organization but rather plan to secularize religious people.
2nd Part
ReplyDelete• A consequence of the previous point (event before combatant units opened their doors to female soldiers) is that historically and to this date, there is a significant percentage of religious soldiers who leave their mandatory service less religious or even secular. I have first-hand testimonies from friends and rabbis who are baalei teshuva and were drafted in the army in the past. The Religious-Zionists rabbis also acknowledge the problem. Haredim rabbis are not ready to accept to send their talmidim to an institution where they will throw away their kippa or lessening their avodat Hashem. It can be argued that there are now haredi units, true. But then we go back to the first argument. But also, I was told by a French Ole Hadash who was in the Netzah Yehuda unit that a significant percentage of people are not haredim in those units but religious people who prefer that unit or haredim who fell from the derekh. The person who told me that, is actually himself not fully religious. He is traditional-religious but not fully shomer torah umitsvot. So the extent to which these units is suitable for a haredi young boys who did not fell from the derekh can be asked.
• Despite the above, I do not remember attending a haredi minyan where the special prayer for the soldiers was not read when opening the Heikhal. Apparently I read here or there that there are synagogues were it is not read but I can certify that in most haredi minyanim it is read. There is a difference between the negative view the community has on the institution and the positive view the community has on the soldiers. It must be noted that nice stories about haredim are not news. So the Israeli secular media almost only reports the negative news. And unfortunately, these sinat chinam sowing of the media has an appalling effect on the general population, especially those who live in areas where there are no (or almost no) haredim (and thus, cannot see the other side form personal experience). I see it in the discussions I have at work.
• Most Haredim are against the Chillul Hashem that we are seeing lately but some haredi extremists.
In my opinion, it would be much better to abolish the draft, like Moshe Feiglin proposes. I assume we needed it when the state was less populated but now we don’t need it any more. There are plenty of young people who are motivated to be drafted even if it’s not mandatory. There are also units which are a stepping stone for future career like unit 8200, the sayerets etc. And there is a whole sector (religious-zionist) for whom it’s a mitsva, and they will continue to go there. If it was not mandatory, we would have less tensions in society. One of the main arguments I face personally is “my son/nephew/grandson is obliged to risk his life to protect you. Why your sons don’t risk their lives too?”. I usually say that I am against the draft for all and that if our army behaved like a Jewish army, our soldiers would not be obliged to go to war 3-4 times per decade and they would not get killed or injured because we care more for the Palestinians Jew-hating civilians' lives than our soldiers’ lives.
The problem is that abolishing the draft will not happen because of the social engineering purpose of the IDF. For that purpose, you need to have most people being recruited to the army. Also, among the secular elites, there is a fear of a religious-zionist takeover of the army. Without a mandatory draft, the proportion of religious-zionists in the army and among the officers would be even higher.
Last part
ReplyDeleteSo in the end, it comes back to Devorah’s conclusion: the fact that
1)the state of Israel in not a Jewish state. To take just a small example, how come the Western world is inspired in their legal systems from Roman law and/or Germanic law and we, in the so-called Jewish state, totally ignore the Jewish “Civil law” from the Shoulhan Aroukh (Hoshen Mishpat)?
2)the IDF is not a Jewish army. A Jewish army does not endanger its soldiers’ lives to “mow the grass” in Gaza. A Jewish army does not announces where it’s going to attack by throwing flyers to announce civilians to leave an area. This way, the terrorists know where they have to place traps and concentrate their firepower.
When you lived in Jewish communities abroad and come to live (not visiting) in Israel, you realize how far it’s true. The Israeli identity as been built by getting rid of the Jewish identity. In the first decades of the state, because most people were immigrants and had thus a “Jewish” cultural background (even if they were not religious) it was maybe less apparent; for example, there was much less transgression of Shabbat in public because many people were ashamed to do it.
But now, the majority of the population are Sabras, educated in the secular (often anti-Jewish) schools and the cultural Jewish background of their grand-parents is too far to influence them.
We are asking the Palestinians and the Arabs to recognize that we are a Jewish state but the Israeli population should start by recognizing it first.
Shabbat shalom
Beautifully written, Reuven. Thank you so much! Shabbat shalom.
DeleteIsrael is כבושי רחמנה hashem y"t's secret. The greatest of our people in history, the tosaphot, the Safed kabbalists, the Gra's students and other exemplary Jews sought to make a permanent Return yet could not. Along came some not so exemplary Jews 150 years ago...and here we are.
ReplyDeleteActually spelled out somewhat mystically in this week's Parsha when Yaakov saw Rachel coming with the sheep his heart filled with Love. We are the sheep and little Yaakov will defeat the Angel of evil Esav and in time become Israel and the victory will be Hashem's.
Inside we know that and we will never lose heart.
I am sickened to read Reuven's comments because I see everything he says. I am trying to make sense of it all as I live here and it is so difficult for me... much more than in chul. I find it almost impossible to be calm in holy Yerushalaim and I don't know how anyone can be.. and it is compounded by being away from my familiar surroundings, a language I know... family, friends. What I see around me is so far from my "dream" of E"Y, it may actually be the opposite. I love this land so much -- I love breathing the air in Yerushalaim...but at the end of the day it is probably not enough. I miss the clarity of the US... when it is easier to see who is who...it hurts much more here.. and from your own, I guess. leah R
ReplyDelete