Great shiur. I am happy he said what he did about the missionaries and the rabbis that are working alongside them.
I am wondering though, Devorah Chayah, Rav HaCohen gives over that the error of Noach was trying to get tov from the kelipah (my paraphrase)before its time. My question, how can this be? He just got off the boat, made an altar an offered sacrifices - planted a vineyard and then drank of the wine. (was there so much evil in the world during the time that it took to plan and harvest the wine?
Rabbi Katz gives over this same shiur with regard to Noach (great shiur as well)He gave over that Noach - like Adam - made an error in drinking the wine before Shabbos.
Here is what Talmud - Mas. Pesachim 87b states:
R. Eleazar also said: The Holy One, blessed be He, did not exile Israel among the nations save in order that proselytes might join them, for it is said: And I will sow her unto Me in the land;20 surely a man sows a se'ah in order to harvest many kor! While R. Johanan deduced it from this: And I will have compassion upon her that hath not obtained compassion.21
(20) Hos. II, 25. (21) Ibid. R. Johanan makes this refer to the Gentiles, who in God's compassion will be given the opportunity. through Israel's exile, of coming under the wings of the Shechinah. According to Rashi, R. Johanan deduces it from the concluding part of the verse, ‘And I will say to them that are not My people; thou art My people’. This passage shows these two Rabbis in favour of proselytes. For the general attitude of the Rabbis towards proselytization v. f. E. art. Proselyte.
How can we not give over the 7 noahide laws as Rabbi David Katz does, Breslov, Chabad and (you have a link to a Noahide site)to teach these noahides how to be righteous if we don't give shirum, give out handouts to the 7 laws and direct them to the proper rabbis that will be happy to teach them if they do teshuvah and let go of their doctrines.
Goldie ZP - Unlike the purveyors of lies, we have no need to go out to the masses with a "message." Those searching for the truth will come to us. Every Ger Tzedek (convert) that I know was brought by Hashem Himself, i.e. they had an inner revelation of the truth which led them to seek out Judaism on their own without any other prompting. And they all report the same experience - they had to fight to get to where they are. They were initially rejected several times, just as our tradition prescribes and those with the real love for Hashem and His Torah persevered. G-d looks for quality not quantity.
It is not our job to go out to the world and teach them. That is an assimilated xian idea. Our job is to be a living example for the goyim to observe and emulate. The idea is that they will be so impressed by how a society based on G-d's laws is run that they will send representatives to us to learn and bring back their knowledge to their people. This is exactly how things worked in the time of King Solomon. And it does not require us to go into exile and live among them.
However, this has no relevance for the issue of bringing xian missionaries into Jewish homes and businesses and providing them with opportunities to evangelize Jews in Israel.
We have very specific laws as to when and how righteous gentiles may be allowed to live in the Holy Land. None of them apply in this case. None of the Jews involved with these missionaries have made any efforts whatsoever to separate these xians from their false beliefs and to this day they continue to hold to all the traditional xian doctrines including that Jews must be converted to their NT "truth" for their own good.
None of the hundreds of people being brought to Israel as "slave" labor has any desire or intention to convert to Judaism, so none of this applies to the situation at hand.
Great shiur. I am happy he said what he did about the missionaries and the rabbis that are working alongside them.
ReplyDeleteI am wondering though, Devorah Chayah, Rav HaCohen gives over that the error of Noach was trying to get tov from the kelipah (my paraphrase)before its time. My question, how can this be? He just got off the boat, made an altar an offered sacrifices - planted a vineyard and then drank of the wine. (was there so much evil in the world during the time that it took to plan and harvest the wine?
Rabbi Katz gives over this same shiur with regard to Noach (great shiur as well)He gave over that Noach - like Adam - made an error in drinking the wine before Shabbos.
Here is what Talmud - Mas. Pesachim 87b states:
R. Eleazar also said: The Holy One, blessed be He, did not exile Israel among the nations save in order that proselytes might join them, for it is said: And I will sow her unto Me in the land;20 surely a man sows a se'ah in order to harvest many kor! While R. Johanan deduced it from this: And I will have compassion upon her that hath not obtained compassion.21
(20) Hos. II, 25.
(21) Ibid. R. Johanan makes this refer to the Gentiles, who in God's compassion will be given the opportunity. through Israel's exile, of coming under the wings of the Shechinah. According to Rashi, R. Johanan deduces it from the concluding part of the verse, ‘And I will say to them that are not My people; thou art My people’. This passage shows these two Rabbis in favour of proselytes. For the general attitude of the Rabbis towards proselytization v. f. E. art. Proselyte.
How can we not give over the 7 noahide laws as Rabbi David Katz does, Breslov, Chabad and (you have a link to a Noahide site)to teach these noahides how to be righteous if we don't give shirum, give out handouts to the 7 laws and direct them to the proper rabbis that will be happy to teach them if they do teshuvah and let go of their doctrines.
Goldie ZP - Unlike the purveyors of lies, we have no need to go out to the masses with a "message." Those searching for the truth will come to us. Every Ger Tzedek (convert) that I know was brought by Hashem Himself, i.e. they had an inner revelation of the truth which led them to seek out Judaism on their own without any other prompting. And they all report the same experience - they had to fight to get to where they are. They were initially rejected several times, just as our tradition prescribes and those with the real love for Hashem and His Torah persevered. G-d looks for quality not quantity.
ReplyDeleteIt is not our job to go out to the world and teach them. That is an assimilated xian idea. Our job is to be a living example for the goyim to observe and emulate. The idea is that they will be so impressed by how a society based on G-d's laws is run that they will send representatives to us to learn and bring back their knowledge to their people. This is exactly how things worked in the time of King Solomon. And it does not require us to go into exile and live among them.
However, this has no relevance for the issue of bringing xian missionaries into Jewish homes and businesses and providing them with opportunities to evangelize Jews in Israel.
We have very specific laws as to when and how righteous gentiles may be allowed to live in the Holy Land. None of them apply in this case. None of the Jews involved with these missionaries have made any efforts whatsoever to separate these xians from their false beliefs and to this day they continue to hold to all the traditional xian doctrines including that Jews must be converted to their NT "truth" for their own good.
None of the hundreds of people being brought to Israel as "slave" labor has any desire or intention to convert to Judaism, so none of this applies to the situation at hand.
I hope this answers your questions.